WELCOME! To my lovely little article on load order issues, CTDs, memory limits, and any other number of things that can contribute to the perfect storm of stuff that might KILL your game. (Brought to almost entirely by: nonoodles, Brandy_123, Killerbuddy, dj2005, SonnyWiFiHr, Zekail, and st4n13y415c).UPDATE: A whole bunch of new info courtesy of (read: stolen from) bben46 and his handy-dandy troubleshooting blog.
Yes, yes. I'm a horrible dirty thief.
Anywho! Feel free to jump to whatever you think is relevant to you:
#01 BACKGROUND TASKS
#02 NEW MODS
#03 BOSS
#04 LOAD ORDER
#05 CTDS ON START-UP
#06 INTERIOR TO EXTERIOR CTDS
#07 EXTERIOR CTDS
#08 CONFLICTS
#09 MEMORY TAXING MODS
#10 MODS & SAVED GAMES
#11 TEXTURES
#12 CLEAN INSTALL
Ok, so. I love you guys, I really do. BUT! Ever since I made the mistake of mentioning "load order" on yonder comments thread I have been inundated with people's mod lists... and I don't even mean people who are USING this mod - I'm getting emails from random strangers who think this mod TOTALLY SUCKS, but HEY! Maybe I can help them out a bit?! ...I can't! Really, I have no idea what I'm doing. I am NOT an expert on the subject. I might SEEM capable, but seriously. No. However! I KNOW people who are, and who do! Know stuff that is. SO! In light of the recent hostile take-over, I have decided to pool this information into one neat and tidy little spot, because I am just incredibly good to you like that.
Try and leave all comments relating to these issues, here. On this article. I'd really love to try and keep everything "collected" in one spot. The problems you're having now, and their solutions, might be useful information for someone who comes after you. As always, thanks muchly!
END LECTURE. OK! Here we go...
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01. BACKGROUND TASKS
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One un-mod related thing to try before setting off on this great endeavor is... Killing background processes.
What I would suggest, once you've opened your task manager, is to sort by user. Do NOT touch anything not being run by you (sometimes you are called "admin" or "default" if you are boring and unnamed). Meaning leave things being run under "System" alone. ALSO! Do NOT kill "Windows Explorer" (not to be confused with Internet Explorer) or .dll files. Particularly if you don't know what they do. Actually, don't disable ANYTHING that you don't know what it does. Some of these files your OS needs and cutting them will cause it to poop itself. Not good.
Now, anything running in the background can cause a crash. Especially a program that likes to call home. (i.e. an antivirus or instant messaging program, etc.) Start by disabling everything that accesses the internet when you play. (Except, obviously, Steam.)
Next, try to take out programs using an auto update feature (Printers, Java, iTunes, Adobe, etc.) Some of these will even try to connect when the internet is disabled, and keep trying every ten minutes or so.
Then look at the rest of the programs that run in the background, they are stealing time from the game and if they don't give control back quick enough - crash. HP has a bunch of these "media center", "DVD launcher", "On-Screen Display", "Messenger Service" - The HP Media Launcher is actually VERY taxing, and tends to get stuck in load sucking up your resources. So let's take those out too!
After you have cut down the crashes caused by external stuff, we can move onto...
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02. NEW MODS
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People tend to jump to the conclusion that the most recent addition is the problem, thinking that the straw the broke the camel's back is the straw to blame. Whereas, usually, it's a combination of different factors causing the issue. Yes, after installing new mods you might get CTDs, but 9 times out of 10 it's NOT because the mod itself causing CTDs. If the mod in question was totally screwed up, or if there was a fundamental and epic conflict, you would crash pretty much immediately (on start up). The most likely cause is your load order. Where you have placed the new mod relative to other mods you're already running...
(NOTE: "Most likely" does not mean ONLY. But we're getting to that.)
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03. BOSS
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BOSS is good - Great even. Particularly for people who are not well versed in the intricacies of "load order". BUT! Sadly, human intervention is still necessary. An algorithm is never going to know you, your mods and your machine as well as you are. If you've made the decision to run a thousand mods (like the rest of us) then YOU are the one responsible for policing it. AND YES! This is a giant pain in your ass. It's a giant pain my ass too. It's a giant pain in all asses everywhere... but it's important.
In sum, treat BOSS more as a guide - run it once to get all your mods into a loose order, and then go through and re-arrange. (See below section for additional tips on arrangement.)
You can find more info about BOSS and load order
here.
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04. LOAD ORDER
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What I personally do, along with some others, and have been successful with so far (*fingers crossed*) is use a kindergarten approach to load order and try and "group" my mods. Meaning that similar mods are all going together. Essentially you could break my load order down into sections and sub-sections. As an example, here is cross-section of my current mod list:
ESM { 00 Skyrim.esm
ESM { 01 Update.esm
ESM { 02 ClimatesOfTamriel.esm
ESM { 03 ETaC RESOURCES.esm
ESM { 04 Omegared99-Compilation.esm
FIXES { 05 HighResTexturePackFix.esp
FIXES { 06 MiscFixRandomCrap.esp
FIXES { 07 Weapons and Armor fixes.esp
RANDOMLY { 09 Alternate Start - Live Another Life.esp
CHAR { 0A New Eyes.esp
CHAR { 0E New Hair Styles.esp
LOCATION { 0F ETaC - Villlages Complete.esp
LOCATION { 00 ETaC - Morthal.esp
LOCATION { 00 ETaC Whatever Patches.esp
LOCATION { 10 Rayeks_End.esp
ADDS ITEMS { 11 Weapons and Armor.esp
ADDS ITEMS { 17 Hothtrooper44 Armor Compilation.esp
ADDS ITEMS { 1A Omegared99 Compilation.esp
ADDS ITEMS { 1B More Saddles.esp
ADDS ITEMS { 1C Sabre Fur Bag.esp
ADDS PEOPLE { 00 ETaC Follower.esp
TEXTURES { 1D Better Dynamic Snow.esp
TEXTURES { 1E Enhanced Blood Main.esp
TEXTURES { 1F StaticMeshImprovementMod.esp
ENVIRONMENT { 21 WATER - Get Wet.esp
ENVIRONMENT { 22 SoS - The Wilds.esp [Version 1.11]
ENVIRONMENT { 23 SoS - The Dungeons.esp [Version 1.21]
ENVIRONMENT { 24 SoS - Civilization.esp [Version 1.00]ENVIRONMENT { 25 ClimatesOfTamriel-Dungeons&Interiors.esp
GAMEPLAY { 28 UFO Ultimate Follower Overhaul.esp
GAMEPLAY { 29 Convient Horses.esp
GAMEPLAY { 30 ACE - A Whole Bunch Of.esp(s)
LASTLY { 44 Bashed Patch.esp
As you can see - all of my "fix" type mods I put at the top, because other mods tend to fix things as they see them (this mod included), so I ALWAYS want these to be overwritten when necessary... Load order is essentially just to determine a hierarchy in conflicts. Which is sort of good and sort of bad because the game doesn't really LIKE the conflicts regardless of what order their in (but that's a whole other conversation for another time lol) In the case of this mod... well it adds a lot of "stuff" but it really doesn't make any script, quest, companion, environmental, etc. changes. So usually you'll want to load things making more serious changes AFTER this mod, regardless of what BOSS tells you... except in the case of LAL, because naturally one rule can't apply to everything. TOO EASY!
Things going down the list are technically, sort of, overwriting the things above it. Things that you want to override this mod (i.e. your quests, companions, environmental - sounds, water, weather, lights, etc.) you want loaded
AFTER this. What I'm tell you, is that those of you here who are running the town mod, want it very high up on your load order.
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05. CTDS ON START-UP
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{HEY LOOK! More things I stole.} This applies to all of the Bethesda Softworks Gambryo based games - Skyrim, Oblivion, Fallout3, Fallout New Vegas. [For the sake of this bit we're defining a "CTD on Start-Up as...] When you click to start the game, you get the black square that you typically see when starting, then the game drops you back into the desktop with no error or explanation.
The game start routine loads the game engine, then the game master file (game_name.esm) then the vanilla assets in the form of .bsa files (Bethesda's proprietary compressed format), then any mod .esm (master files) then the mod esp files. If an .esm tries to load after it's .esp you will get an instant crash. If a mod starts to load and refers to an .esm that is not there - crash.
Most likely - you are missing a master (.esm) file that some mod refers to. OR! You are not starting with a script extender (SKSE, OBSE, FOSE, etc.) that is REQUIRED by some mod that you have.
Check to be sure you are starting with the script extender, and not the game.exe or the unmodified game launch icon if you have any mods that require it. Check any recently added mods (or removed mods) for dependencies - if a mod 'depends' on some other mod being there - and you removed it, it will crash.
Best bet if you're unsure is to consult with the mod's maker. If using Wrye Bash (or in possession of the CK) you can check for yourself what dependencies the mods you're running might have.
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06. INTERIOR TO EXTERIOR CRASH
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This is sort of an evolving addition to this article, as I haven't had much of a chance to investigate it myself yet. SO! In the meantime, I bring you - noonoodles:
"When the interior cell is significantly larger than exterior dimensions. Say you have a player home mod, if the interior of the house is much larger than its exteriors (mansion inside a hovel syndrome) it can cause CTD on travelling from in to out. Maybe not immediately. But chances are high.
Quoting someone on the Bethsoft forums...
"Go to My Games/Skyrim and open up one of the .ini files (Unsure which one it is, either Skyrim or SkyrimPrefs. Gstaff only said 'skyrimcustom.ini' which doesn't exist).
Under [General], look for iLargeIntRefCount. If you can't find it, create it.
Change the value for the setting to this: iLargeIntRefCount=999999"
It's under General section in Skyrim.ini. Unless I got their discussion all wrong, this appears to be the solution to interior to exterior travel crash and it comes straight from the developers themselves."Oh, and HEY!
BACK UP YOUR .INI FILE BEFORE MAKING ANY CHANGES TO IT.
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07. EXTERIOR CTDS
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{Again, STOLEN + Paraphrased} So, if you're getting CTDs ONLY when you near a certain place the culprit is typically a mod that was removed. Not one that is installed. Sometimes when you have a save that includes some important whatever from a mod and that mod is later removed, the game is still looking for that important whatever in that location... and when it can't find it - crash.
[See "SAVED GAMES" section below for additional information on things that will destroy your saves.]
To test this try starting a new game - if you have a clean save on stand-by (which you SHOULD. Seirously.) Then trying running this save. It shouldn't reference the missing object. Travel to where you were getting the crashes to see if they persist.
If it doesn't crash, then you get to figure out what it was you removed from the game. One trick is to jump forward about half the way in your save games and test again. This cuts the time when it began in half - either the change was before that save - it crashes, or after that save, No crash. Use this to narrow down to the save where it first happened and see what you had installed just before - and what you have installed just after.
NOTE: For more information on constant exterior CTDs can be found
here. Thanks to Yafi.
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08. CONFLICTS
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Conflicts can be tricky. Very big, very bad, conflicts will be pretty much immediately obvious. But there are a lot of other kinds of conflicts that can be sneakier, and far harder to pick up on right away.
The first thing I would suggest is to re-check your mod list for anything that jumps out at you. An example in the case of this here mod would be if you were running this AND something like Better Villages. THAT would most definitely be a conflict. Make sure that you aren't running any mods together that are essentially doing the same thing, even if they're doing it in a somewhat less obvious way than the example given above.
The second type of conflict is a little harder to spot, and also resolve. These are the "unintended conflicts". This type of conflict can exist between two mods that seemingly have nothing in common. They can result in anything as massively infuriating as CTDs, or as minor-ly annoying as objects appearing out of place. A *wee* bit of copy+paste-ing can go a long way towards all kinds of weirdness, particularly if the mod creator isn't careful. Now, I'm not trying to come down on other modders - I know It's tough to catch. It's easy to "bump" an object in the CK (making the CK mark this object as "changed") without realizing it. But copy+paste is dirty process that can wreak all kinds of havoc. If the CK thinks the object is "changed" it will cause the containing mod to overwrite with changes that were not necessarily meant to be made.
"Player House" mods are a particularly notorious source of this, mostly due to that they're a common endeavor for newbie modders - They're quick, they're easy, and they allow you to get a feel for the CK in a small controlled environment. Newbie modders, however, are rarely mindful of copy+paste conflicts, and tend to do A LOT of accidental bumping of random objects. It's not their fault really. It tends to be a lesson you have to learn the hard way because most of the time you don't even know that you've done it, and if you aren't aware that it could cause a problem, you wouldn't think to check for it.
(Dear People: This is NOT to say that ALL player house mods will have this problem. I myself have used several player house mods all of which were 100% fine. It's just something to keep in mind.)
In sum, you can't always tell what mods might be messing with what. I realize this is a nightmare for you, especially if you are not versed enough in the CK to know how to remedy said conflicts... and I'm not going to explain it here. Because, really, I do not want to be held responsible if you happen to break something.
My suggestion in these cases would be to try to eliminate all other things as the cause of your problem, and, if you end up being left with some mysterious and totally unaccounted for conflict, try contact the mod's maker to see if they can shed any light on whatever the issue might be, and-or correct the problem themselves.
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09. MEMORY TAXING MODS
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Skyrim includes the Large Address Aware patch (LAA or 4Gig patch) that allows it to use UP TO 4Gigs of system ram. Currently there is NO WAY to make it use more even if you do have a 64 bit system with lots of RAM.
I shall now direct to you back to bben46 (for when one "b" just isn't enough):
QUOTE
No matter how much ram you have, Skyrim is still a 32 bit program and can only use a maximum of 4Gig of that ram. This is not something that you can fix. Running a 64 bit system just allows the Windows and other background stuff to load outside of the 4Gig maximum used by the game. Even with a 64 bit Windows, if you have 4Gig of ram or less, you will not be able to use all of it for the game. If you have a 32 bit system then the system itself is limited to 4Gig max, and part of that will be used by windows and background programs. - again, nothing you can fix. Even if you have a million dollar Cray supercomputer with 256 Gig of ram - Skyrim is still limited to 4 Gig ram max. And when that 4Gig is used up - you will crash.
If you are running too many mods, whether it be a million small mods or five big mods, you will at some point reach this critical mod mass.
It does not have anything to do with the memory and-or awesomeness of your computer. I am running on 16 GB and even I can't exceed this 4GB limit. And yes, this can even be due to having too many textures (see # 7 below).
In sum, when your ram is used up, you will
crash. There is nowhere to put the new data. This is most often seen when you load a new area, go through a door, or autosave. As these actions temporarily take a lot more memory than you were using just before the crash.
NOTE: Most laptops steal system ram to use for video ram - meaning you have even less system ram to use for the game.
NOW! We'll go thorough some things you can try to cut down on your memory usage to get your game running in something a little less Kamikaze.
One thing you might want to try is this FREE program. It allows you to disable a lot of uneeded background processes and programs while playing, then with a mouse click put them all back when you are finished. Some people swear by it, others swear at it. I myself have never used it, but hey, ya never know:
Game_BoosterMeanwhile, back in Gotham... Another thing to keep in mind is that there are whole bunch of memory taxing mods out there (this mod among them). Now that you've all been educated on that there IS a clear and definite cap on how much memory you're going to be able to use at a given time, it's entirely possible that your CTDs are not because of any one specific mod, but just that you've reached your "memory ceiling" so-to-speak.
In this case, attempting to optimize is probably the best way to go. Go through your entire mod list, scrap things that you either are not particularly attached to and try, in general, to cut down on the number of extremely demanding mods you are running. There is nothing you can do to get your game to run outside of the parameters it's allowed. In some cases scarifies are going to have to be made.
The issue isn't always the
amount of mods you have, but what
type you have that might be taxing the game engine, or your computer, in different ways. I'm not saying you can't run huge giant mods. I'm just saying that there is a limit to how many of them that you can run simultaneously and expect your game to stay stable. Just try to be selective about what you download and weigh the risk vs. reward.
Here are some examples of "memory taxing mods", brought to you by Killerbuddy:
- ThirteenOranges' Quest Mods
- WARZONES
- Expanded Towns and Villages
- Towns and Villages Enhanced
- Moonpath to Elsweyr
- Become King of Riverhelm
- Whiterun Outskirts Market
- 7K Whiterun
- Pinewood
- Primby Village
- CLARALUX
- Open Cities
- Expanded Winterhold Ruins
Again, this is just a place to start. Obviously not EVERY memory taxing mod is on this list, but it should serve to give you an idea what TYPE of mods you're looking for.
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10. MODS & SAVED GAMES
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Loading a mod is not as simple as you might think. Mods often overwrite and make changes to all kinds of files. When you uninstall or "un-check" a mod from the active load, although the mod itself does not execute, the changes its made still do. Even a single, poorly written mod can be devastating to Skyrim's already unstable environment. The more and more mods you load, particularly mods that were not careful scrutinized prior to release may be bringing you closer and closer to the brink. Orphan code or redundant code can really start to nudge your game into a crashing or become a more unstable environment. This can cause random crashes, game corruption or bloated save game files. Many mods break vanilla quests by overwriting various aspects of them, or by removing the ability for quest to be activated, triggered, or to be completed at certain stages.
My point is that there is a good chance all that there is a whole bunch of junk still lurking about in your save. Particularly if you've ever run a mod with any new or edited scripts. You can deactive the mod, you can delete the scripts, but if not properly executed, the scripts will keep on keeping on. Waiting to attack, when you least expect it. (There is a way to investigate this also, and I will again direct you to my friend "Google" as the process involves making changes to your .ini file - ALWAYS HAVE A BACKUP). Essentially,
YOU might forget about the mod the second it's deleted, but your SAVE remembers.A reliable mod of yesterday is not always reliable today. This is even true for this mod, I'm certainly not trying to set myself apart. It's been a long and bumpy road to get here, nonoodles can tell you I have broken many a persons' game, many a time. With all the game updates and availability more massive and immersive mods, getting everything to run smoothly has really become more of an art than a science.
If I could bestow anything upon you, it would be the importance of
making a clean, mod-free save. Things (especially scripts) have a way of cementing into your save games. When you start un-installing mods, you leave little seeds of despair that grow up to be full blown pains in the backside.
A fresh load, with saves along the way, will be a far cleaner environment to set a good mod foundation on.A lot of problems stem from that scripts, among lots of other junk, actually get saved INTO your saved game files, and this stuff
does not go away when they uninstall a mod, leading to very dirty saved game files that will frequently refuse to play nicely with the whole ton of mods you're using.
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11. TEXTURES
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Yea, I didn't believe it at first either. If nonoodles could tell you the number of times she's heard "ya but I'm really not running anything else, well, except 2093810983013 textures..." When all other problem areas are correctly eliminated it always comes down to textures. I know what you're thinking. But it's got nothing to do with the horsepower of one's PC (no matter how much of a diesel beast you might be running on). It has everything to do with game engine limits.
So if your load order is great, mod conflicts have been eliminated... try cleaning up some of your texture mods, get rid of some of them entirely. Prioritize. You might be surprised at the result.
Here are some further suggestions, brought to you by SonnyWiFiHr:
A great tool to consider is
Skyrim_Configurator, this will allow you to adjust everything and it enables multithreading for textures, world objects, etc.
You could also try reducing the size of the textures. Bringing the textures down to 1K will reduce CTDs and even boost overall performance with no visual lost. You can find a couple good texture reducing tools
here or
here.
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12. CLEAN INSTALL
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Nobody wants to have to do this. I don't blame them. I wouldn't want to have to do this either. But sometimes, there's just really nothing left to do but THE DREADED CLEAN INSTALL. I'm not really going to explain to you HOW to do a clean install - my assumption is that you are already aware, or if not, are most definitely in possession of Google (hint: I can tell, because you are reading this).
All I can really tell you, if you've found yourself in this particular boat is, after your clean install: BACK UP YOUR .INI FILE. Seroiusly. Do that.
Once you've got your game cleanly reinstalled, try reintroducing your mods selectively. This should help narrow down any problems that you might have with what you're running.
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THE END.
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*Phew* Ok, that took FOR. EVER. I am done now though.
Honestly, even if you have no desire to continuing using THIS mod in particular, I will still highly recommend checking some of this stuff out. If you're getting CTDs now, it's safe to assume you're just going to get them from something else later. Skyrim is a delicate environment, it takes a bit of finagling to get everything running properly especially when you start introducing large mods, such as this, or others like it, into the mix.
As I said at the start, if none of this appears to solve any of your problems at all, please leave your messages below and I [we] will do my [our] best to get your game back to it's happy place.
Cheers.
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